Narcissists – The Red Flags and What to do About Them (interview)

One of the biggest challenges in online dating is when you meet someone and something just doesn’t feel right, or it feels too right. You can become overwhelmed by displays of romance and affection. Could it be love at first sight? Or is it a warning sign?

Recently, I sat down with psychotherapist Gretchen Genz Davidson, who has decades of experience helping people navigate relationships. We took a deep dive into this complicated area of dating, understanding the behavior that can help daters determine whether someone could be a good match, or one of the worst types you can meet – the narcissist. Below are portions of our conversation, which have been edited for brevity and clarity.

Spotting a Pattern

MARY: Gretchen, you know quite a bit about narcissists. How did your interest in that area of psychology come about?

GRETCHEN: It’s very interesting. I was working with people, mostly women, whose relationship patterns I was trying to understand. There was something recurring in their stories. Then I was in a personal relationship where I recognized somewhere in the middle of it, that my partner was likely a narcissist, and it sort of hit me that my own experience was mirroring what my clients were describing. It was kind of like my head exploded because even though I could look at what a narcissist is on paper, that doesn’t always help you to understand how it’s operationalized in everyday life.

GRETCHEN: I found that what my clients were describing is what I was feeling. Some of those things would be confusion, intense self-doubt, a difficulty getting out of the relationship and a distortion of your sense of reality. This was really before it became like an explosion on the internet. Now everybody’s talking about it, but back then it was not so much something that we paid a lot of attention to.

Sorting It Out

MARY: What is a narcissist? What’s the difference between narcissistic traits and narcissistic personality disorder?

GRETCHEN: We bandy it about a lot, but it’s really important to differentiate a true narcissist, somebody with a personality disorder, from somebody with narcissistic traits. A true narcissist is going to have a profound lack of empathy, an inflated sense of self that is also quite fragile, and maybe most apparent, it’s a chronic need for admiration and validation. We call it narcissistic supply. A narcissist looks for supply, which is that constant admiration and validation. But underneath this all, this is the really key part, is the fragility that’s underneath this grandiose picture. All this bravado, it masks a deep sense of shame. Narcissists are very fragile because they touch that shame. And they must hide from their own shame.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Gretchen tells me that there are nine specific clinical diagnostic traits that determine whether one is a narcissist, and that one only needs to meet five of them to be considered as having narcissistic personality disorder.

GRETCHEN: The word narcissist gets overused because it’s really a difficult diagnosis to make and probably only somewhere between 1% and 5% of the population would meet the criteria for the actual personality disorder, but the damage that people feel from others with just a few narcissistic traits is very real and can be very, very profound. I can list the nine traits, and they have to meet five of them. A good way to remember those criteria is by using the acronym SPECIAL ME.

SPECIAL ME

GRETCHEN: Special Me. It’s a good way to remember it. A sense of Self-importance, the grandiosity, a Preoccupation with fantasies of power, beauty or success. They’re very Entitled. They expect special treatment, whether they’ve deserved it or not. They Can only be around people who are special. In other words, they really like to be around other people that elevate their status. They are Interpersonally exploitative for their own gain. They can be extremely Arrogant. Definitely they must Lack empathy. They Must be admired, and they are Envious of others or believe others are envious of them.

GRETCHEN: If they meet 5 of these criteria, and it’s a pretty rigid, pervasive pattern, and it damages many areas of their functionality, their work, their relationships or other areas of life, then that is what would get them the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. Some people might have four of those traits and they’re not a full-on narcissist, but they are still very difficult people and may be people who you don’t want to be around.

A Big, Red Flag – Love Bombing

MARY: When you meet someone in dating, you always want to put your best foot forward. So, when you first meet someone, is it possible to see the red flags that early on? Are there red flags that you can learn to spot right away?

GRETCHEN: Sure, the traditional red flags, like love bombing. It’s an overwhelming amount of attention. Intensity. That’s an important one. They tend to be more intense than others. And really, intensity is not the same thing as intimacy. Intensity usually feels very amazing in the beginning, like a magical experience, which is why we miss the red flags. Another thing to look for is they may idealize you early on. It feels intoxicating. It feels wonderful. But it is manipulative.

GRETCHEN: There’s nothing wrong with them saying, “Oh, you’re so pretty,” or “I really like you. I enjoyed myself.” That’s not love bombing. But, you know, when it’s like, “Oh my God, I’ve been waiting for you all my life!” or “I’ve never met anybody like you. You’re just amazing!” That is something to watch out for. It may feel really good, but they’re basically a stranger.

GRETCHEN: So, for them to idolize you to that point is of concern. It may feel good. You may think, ‘Oh, my God, yeah, I’m the woman he’s been waiting for. I’m so awesome.’ You may indeed be awesome, but you’re a stranger to him, so he’s manipulating your emotions.

Monopolizing and Mirroring

GRETCHEN: Another thing you gotta watch out for is, and this is a pretty easy one to spot, is when they monopolize the conversation. Everything comes back to them. If you’ve ever talked to somebody like this, they could talk for two hours about how great they are and maybe look at you once and say, “So where are you from?” That kind of thing.

MARY: But we as women are raised in a society that teaches you that when you go out with a guy, ask a guy a lot of questions. They love to talk about themselves and that plays right into their hands.

GRETCHEN: Oh absolutely! And that’s a big part of why I think we end up with narcissists that validate that kind of behavior. Another thing you can really look for is mirroring. And what I mean by that is they seem perfect because they’re constantly reflecting back the things you say or your values, like, ‘Oh, my God, I feel that way! My God, we’re so much alike!” Those are of concern. Again, this is a stranger, and that is manipulation. This is a harder one to notice because it usually doesn’t happen right away.

Testing Boundaries

Gretchen tells me there are other behaviors to watch out for, such as gaslighting, as those with narcissistic traits begin to test boundaries.

GRETCHEN: I call it testing behavior, which means they start testing boundaries. They start pushing boundaries. They may start out very small, like they’re always late. At first, they might say, “Oh, I’m sorry, it won’t happen again,” but then it happens again and again. And you finally say, “This bothers me that you’re always late,” or whatever. And they go, “What is this thing about you needing me to be on time all the time? This sounds really controlling to me.” They’ll flip it around and gaslight you.

GRETCHEN: Another thing you’ve got to watch for is a charming guy. Of course, a man can be charming, and it doesn’t mean he’s a narcissist. But excessive charm, using charm to try to test your boundaries, say, “Oh, come on, let’s give it a try” when you’re uncomfortable. That’s something that you can maybe not find out right away, but as soon as it happens, pay attention! A lot of times they will push you to define the relationship really quickly, maybe to see them too often or to say we’re exclusive to move in. There’s a joke about it: Nobody falls in love faster than a narcissist who needs a place to live!

Red Flag or Green Flag?

MARY: Are there some personality traits that might be misunderstood? Can you tell me what kinds of behaviors you might misinterpret as a red flag, but really aren’t?

GRETCHEN: Being charismatic or charming, if it’s not excessive, or exploitive, if it’s not used in connection with testing boundaries or not taking accountability. I think being charismatic is a lovely thing to have. Another is having strong opinions. I’m very opinionated. I think you’re probably, too.

MARY: I am opinionated, that’s for sure!

GRETCHEN: That doesn’t mean that you’re a narcissist. It just means that we have strong opinions about things. Many people do. So, there’s a difference we’ve seen being having strong opinions and then just being overbearing and feeling like you’re right about everything and everybody else is wrong.

GRETCHEN: Another thing is enjoying attention. We all love attention, right? We like somebody to be nice to us. We like them to compliment us, text us. That could be something that people mistake as narcissism. We all enjoy attention. We go on Facebook and we put on a fun post, and we get a lot of attention for it. That doesn’t make us a narcissist. We’re not demanding attention, but we can enjoy attention. Narcissists demand attention. And if they don’t get it, they can be pretty snarly about it.

GRETCHEN: One other thing is probably ambition. People can be ambitious and want a better life for themselves. It does not at all mean that they are a narcissist, that they’re going to exploit you. Confidence is not something that is necessarily a red flag. People who are confident can make room for other people, right? They can say, “I want you to do great as well.” Narcissists can’t share the attention. They need to be the only confident one in the room. Everybody else has got to take a back seat and narcissists really can’t laugh at themselves.

MARY: Self-deprecating humor does not exist in their world, right?

GRETCHEN: It does not, unless they’re manipulating you.

Green Flags – Empathy & Chemistry

Gretchen reminds me that there are some personality “must-haves” to look out for when you’re dating. I call them the green flags of dating.

GRETCHEN: Empathy and reciprocity are the real things that you have to look for. Some people can do performative empathy where they know to say, “Oh, your mother died. I’m so sorry for your loss.” Anybody can do that. That’s sympathy. Empathy means they can put themselves in your shoes, and know how it feels to be you, and that your separateness from them, your needs, your feelings, they take those into account.

GRETCHEN: A narcissist cannot do that. A narcissist believes you are an extension of their own arm. Whatever they feel, whatever they need, that’s what you should also feel. Reciprocity is they show curiosity about you. They can tolerate not being in the center of things all the time. A narcissist has to be in control, and they will dismiss you, and they may not show very much of any curiosity about you.

MARY: How can someone tell the difference between actually having chemistry or being manipulated?

GRETCHEN: Chemistry can feel exciting, but it still feels safe. You feel like you can be yourself. You don’t feel like you’re walking on eggshells. You don’t feel anxious. You feel like you and the other person are kind of taking it at a similar pace. But if it’s manipulation, it often feels disorienting, like you are walking on eggshells. You’re not quite sure what’s going on. It may go too fast. It may be too intense for you. It’s like, it’s almost like you’re being pulled forward emotionally before you’re really ready for it.

MARY: You may have that feeling of being off-balance a little.

GRETCHEN: Feeling off-balance, right.

Trusting Your Instincts

MARY: I talk and write about this a lot, about how you need to trust your gut instinct, really listen to your gut. If it doesn’t feel right, there’s probably something off, right?

GRETCHEN: Absolutely. And that may be the most important thing in learning to protect yourself from potential narcissists in dating is that if you feel slightly off, if in your body, you feel uncomfortable, there’s something there. If it feels exciting but also feels uncomfortable – pay attention to that. I think a lot of people don’t pay attention, and then they are deep in and get emotionally connected before they really find out the bad stuff.

MARY: In dating, it’s easy to ignore things for so many reasons. You desperately want this relationship to work out and ‘Oh, I’ll overlook this and I’ll overlook that.’ I made that mistake a thousand times, giving people the benefit of the doubt. I finally learned in my long online dating adventure to pull the trigger early on. If it doesn’t feel right, bye-bye. Is that being too rough?

GRETCHEN: Not at all. At the very least, if people don’t feel like they can pull the plug right away, then slow it down. Take it slow. I think we should do that regardless because, like I said, we’re dating a stranger. We need time to find out who the stranger is. And if you’re feeling really powerful chemistry, so powerful, like, ‘Oh, my God! I can’t sleep. I can’t eat. I think about this person 24-7 but I’m not really sure how they feel about me because I haven’t heard from them in two days and oh, my God.’ That is a danger signal. If you’re really focusing in on what you’re feeling, you’re feeling anxious. And that’s not how you should be feeling. You might be mistaking anxiety for chemistry. And because these are highly narcissistic people, they’re very skilled. They read what they think you need and reflect it back to you. And they’ll do it in the early stages. That’s part of how they pull you into their web.

The Emotional Impact

MARY: What can the emotional impact be for someone who’s dating a narcissist? Some of it can be pretty bad, right?

GRETCHEN: It can be really bad. You want to try to get out, like you said, as soon as possible, because the longer you’re in it, the more your sense of self erodes. The impact, it’s like any abusive relationship, and that’s what we call it narcissistic abuse.  The worst thing is how it erodes your self-trust. You’re being gaslighted and you start to really doubt your own reality.

MARY: So how does one learn to date again without fear? That’s tough. You have to trust your instinct, getting back to trusting your instincts, building that, right?

GRETCHEN: Right, because you almost need to be debriefed like someone who’s been in a cult. You have to get back your sense of reality because you’ve become very used to feeling anxious and feeling hyper-vigilant. You start to blame yourself because you start to internalize what the narcissist is saying about you, their narrative about you.

GRETCHEN: You get something called trauma bonding. I don’t know if you’ve heard of intermittent reinforcement. That’s what they use in Las Vegas to get you hooked on gambling. You get intermittently reinforced, like you’re playing a slot machine or whatever and you’re not getting anything for a while and then you’re about to walk away and then it gives you something. It dings up and you get like 100 bucks. So, you’re like, ‘Okay, I’m going to stick around.’ That’s intermittent reinforcement. And that creates an attachment that’s very hard to break. Even when you start to realize that this person is harmful because you’re always waiting for the payout.

Trust Yourself

If you’ve been thrown for a loop by dating a narcissist and are afraid to get out there again, Gretchen has some solid tips on how to move on and date in a way that’s good for your mental health.

GRETCHEN: Probably the most important thing I could tell people about how to date again without fear is that you have to rebuild trust in your own perception. You have to reconnect with your own instincts before you even start dating. Make sure your instincts are up and running. Make sure you feel a good amount of trust in your own perception and make sure that you slow things down. Like I said, slow the pace of intimacy, that will help. Understand that it’s okay to have boundaries. It’s okay to say no because narcissists will push you, and you have to be strong enough in your own sense of self. We can never say, ‘I’ll never be hurt again,’ but we can recognize the red flags sooner.

MARY: Can those with Narcissistic Personality Disorder change?

GRETCHEN: There’s a joke that goes like this: How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the rest of the world has to revolve around them.” I’m gonna be really honest here. No, it’s very treatment resistant. They don’t seek help unless they’re extremely pressured, or they have some massive loss of ego in their lives, because they’re all about their ego. Somebody dumps them that they really loved, or they lose a job. Basically, a narcissist will only come to therapy to get their ego stroked, and they’ll leave when they feel like they’ve replaced whatever they lost.

GRETCHEN: The things that we need in order to change, our insight and vulnerability, they don’t have either of those things. Vulnerability is too frightening for them, and they really have impaired insight. So, they really are not going to change. Maybe somebody with a couple of narcissistic traits might be wanting to change those traits and if they have insight and the ability for vulnerability, they can change. But somebody with the full-on NPD, they’re not going to change.

MARY: What are the best words of advice for spotting a narcissist and how to avoid them?

GRETCHEN: The first thing to keep in mind is, don’t try to diagnose. Just look for the patterns, look for the traits. In the beginning, look for some of the red flags I mentioned, and pay strong attention to how you feel. Do you feel off balance? Do you feel anxious? Do you feel like you’re not enough? Do you feel a lot of confusion about what’s real? If you start to feel those, then you could very well be dating a narcissist. You want to move away from that relationship. If you do hang with them for a little bit longer, the thing you want to look for is how they handle you saying no. Somebody who’s not a narcissist will handle no without shaming or blaming you. How do they respond to your needs? Do they minimize them? Do they dismiss them? Or do they honor them? And whether they are accountable. If you say, “Hey, that bothers me, you were late.” They say, “I’m really sorry, you’re absolutely right. I’ll do better.” And then they actually do it.

MARY: Be a man, be a man of your word, or a woman of your word, right?

GRETCHEN: Exactly. And I would say that the last thing is consistency. They need to show consistency over time. If they go hot and cold on you, that’s a really bad sign. I wouldn’t put up with it.

MARY: Gretchen, this has been so enlightening! Thank you!

GETCHEN: Oh, good, I’m glad.

Gretchen has a wonderful blog that you can visit at Kvetchin with Gretchen. There, you can sign up for her newsletter. You can also contact her through her blog.

After our conversation, Gretchen sent me something that perfectly sums up the personality of a narcissist. It’s called “The Narcissist’s Prayer” and it goes like this: “That didn’t happen, and if it did, it wasn’t that bad, and if it was, that’s not a big deal, and if it is, that’s not my fault, and if it was, I didn’t mean it, and if I did….you deserved it!”

Let’s Have a Conversation:

Have you ever found yourself involved with someone who was a narcissist or had narcissistic traits? If so, what was it like? If you’ve ever ended a relationship with someone who showed narcissistic traits, what was that experience like for you? And how are you today?